Jimmy Carroll: [00:00:08] Hi everyone, and welcome to this episode of the “Manufacturing Matters” podcast, where we discuss the latest trends and technology shaping the manufacturing industry today. My name is Jimmy Carroll. I’m the vice president of operations at Tech B2B Marketing, and I’m joined today by my colleague Aaron Hand, and we both have the pleasure of speaking to Darnell Epps, who is the founder and CEO of Thurgood Industries. Darnell, thanks so much for taking the time today. I really appreciate it.

Darnell Epps: [00:00:32] Thanks. Happy to be here, Jim.

Jimmy Carroll: [00:00:35] Awesome. Yeah. So for those who don’t know out there, can you tell us a bit about your company and how it got started?

Darnell Epps: [00:00:41] Sure. At Thurgood, we’re building a career networking and job placement platform specifically for skilled workers and those looking to enter advanced industries like manufacturing or the construction trades. We want to expand the pipeline of entry-level skilled talent by making these careers more accessible and exciting to a broader audience. But, you know, my journey to entrepreneurship and launching Thurgood has been atypical. After graduating from Yale Law School, where I was heavily involved in clinical work that brought me face-to-face with, you know, underserved communities, I realized that there was a critical gap in the job market, particularly for those who don’t have a four-year degree but were looking for stable, middle-class careers. So to better understand those challenges and opportunities, I became a certified machinist myself, and I earned a diploma in manufacturing technology while I was still in law school. This obviously gave me a unique perspective on the value of the trades and the potential they have to uplift communities and individuals. So what ultimately brought me to found the company is just a deep commitment to creating pathways to upward economic mobility for all Americans, especially those from disadvantaged backgrounds.

Jimmy Carroll: [00:02:12] Sure.

Aaron Hand: [00:02:15] So I’m actually wondering, Darnell… as a journalist, I’ve been covering manufacturing industries for about 35 years, and about 25 of those years have been as a parent as well. So, a lot of times, these discussions, from what I’ve understood from other people who are trying to instill these… skilled trades in industry, is that it’s the parents that are difficult to get around. And I think from my own perspective, I see the logic in going toward the skilled trades. And yet I sent my kids to college and that’s… I think that has been a lot of the thinking. How do you talk to the parents about what the prospects are for their children?

Darnell Epps: [00:03:04] That’s a great question. And it’s something I encounter often and so do my teammates. As parents, we naturally want the best for our kids. I have a six year old and a one year old. Traditionally, we’ve been taught that a four-year degree is the surest path to success. But the reality is that college isn’t the only avenue for fulfilling a prosperous career. And it’s important, you know, that we as parents recognize the incredible opportunities available in the skilled trades and advanced manufacturing. So when I speak with parents, I talk about economic viability, emphasizing how the trades offer not just jobs, but well-paying careers that provide economic stability. These are careers that can support a family. You think about some of the service sector work that many of the people in New Haven were doing that was very low, low pay that I met with when I was a law student. I kind of came to appreciate that the trades were a far better pathway than some of those jobs that they were working. But, you know, I think it’s also important to stress to parents that industry, the trades and advanced manufacturing aren’t what they think they are. It’s not what it was a generation ago. They’re now technologically driven fields that are both challenging and rewarding. I mean, think about 3D printing, robotics, and all the AI technologies that are now being used on a factory floor. These are new technologies that provide workers with opportunities for continued learning and education.

Darnell Epps: [00:04:50] And it leads to higher pay. So that economic viability point, I think, is key to having those conversations with parents, but I also talk about the satisfaction that comes with mastering a trade, and the security these careers offer. Many parents don’t realize that trades like welding, machining, or electrical work are in high demand, and skilled workers often have more job security than some college graduates. I know a lot of friends who’ve attended college and are struggling with debt and can’t find good paying jobs that they had hoped to find when they took out those massive loans. So, that’s another point to consider as a parent. Again, I talked about the opportunities for lifelong learning based on the cutting-edge technologies that are used. And it also is an eventual path to entrepreneurship for people who want to start their own businesses, which I think is is a tremendous opportunity for many, right? Many of the people who master a trade and that, you know, have some good insights on how to run a business and eventually launch successful businesses on their own. So that’s something you have to kind of stress to parents and highlight for them. So I find that once parents understand that these careers provide both financial security and personal fulfillment they become more open to the idea and, you know, the key is to help them see that choosing a skilled trade is not a fallback option, but a proactive decision to pursue a viable and often lucrative career path.

Aaron Hand: [00:06:38] Yeah. I think there’s a ton of good points in there. I’d like to circle back around to just this idea of how the automation is changing within the factory. That leads to a lot of fears, I think, for existing manufacturing workers and, you know, whether or not their job will be deleted by some automation that’s come in. What does that discussion look like for you to talk to the workers about what their opportunities are to upskill their current trade?

Darnell Epps: [00:07:15] I mean, a concern about automation taking jobs in manufacturing is understandable, but I believe it’s important to reframe the conversation. Rather than viewing automation as a threat, we should see it as an opportunity to elevate the workforce and create new kinds of jobs that require different skills. Automation, obviously, is transforming manufacturing, but it’s not about replacing humans. It’s about augmenting human capacity capabilities. As machines take on repetitive and physically demanding tasks, the role of the worker is shifting to focus more on overseeing programming and maintaining these advanced technologies. I see that, you know, with some of the students who are in my vocational course at Lincoln Tech who were very focused on 3D printing, additive manufacturing, CAD/CAM modeling, and some of the skills that employers throughout the state of Connecticut were looking for. And, this shift is creating a demand for workers with more specialized skills in those key areas. And the key is to invest in education and training that align with these emerging opportunities. Automation isn’t the end of jobs in manufacturing, in my opinion. It’s the beginning of a new era of innovation and growth for those willing to seize the opportunity. So it, you know… Some of the repetitive work, more laborious work that was being done on the factory floor is being automated. But, there’s a demand for higher-level skills for some of these entry-level roles. And with that comes higher pay. And more bargaining power as a worker.

Jimmy Carroll: [00:09:02] Darnell, one of the… I guess the path that led us to speaking today was, we read——I know Aaron and I both read it and I think a number of folks in our team read——your editorial in the Washington Post earlier this summer on the idea of skilled trades. And obviously, I mean, we really liked it and wanted to talk to you on the podcast. But, for those who haven’t read it, can you talk a little bit about what you believe to be the untapped potential of skilled trades today?

Darnell Epps: [00:09:30] Yeah, certainly. I kind of alluded to it earlier. I believe the skilled trades and advanced manufacturing hold immense untapped potential for driving upward economic mobility in this country. In the Washington Post piece that you mentioned, in a recent op ed I wrote for The Hill, you know, I kind of highlight how these sectors provide a clear pathway to the middle class, especially for those who may not have the time or resources to pursue a four-year college degree. There are just too many low-wage jobs out there that trap workers in the cycle of poverty. The trades, in my view, offer living wages —— not just my view, but according… based on the data —— living wages, stability and opportunities for career advancement. And, as we spoke about earlier, it’s with advancements in technology, 3D printing, robotics and artificial intelligence, trades are also providing workers with the chance to grow and advance throughout their careers through continuous upskilling. So it’s intellectually stimulating work. It’s well-paying work, and it provides a pathway to upward economic mobility in this country without incurring the debt that comes with four years of college. And I’m not saying, don’t go to college if that’s what you choose to do. You can, you know, do whatever it is you love and what makes you happy. But, I want people to understand that there are alternatives out there. And we need to find other pathways to the middle class than the just the traditional track of, take out a massive loan and go to college.

Jimmy Carroll: [00:11:24] Yeah. Absolutely right. Because, like, it’s like trying to put a square peg in a round hole for some. Like for me, going into the skilled trades wouldn’t have made a lot of sense because I’m not very skilled. Right? But, I’ve gone to college, on the other hand, with a number of people that are naturally talented at X, Y, Z with their hands or mechanically inclined, which has led them to pursue skilled trade jobs even though they went to college. So, yeah, I mean… Don’t necessarily push one way or the other. You have to let people figure out what they’re good at and make that decision and kind of open this new world of possibility, like, hey, if you want to go into welding or whatever it may be, like all the other positions you’ve mentioned, manufacturing, you have the opportunity to go do just as well.

Darnell Epps: [00:12:17] And I’ll quickly add that one of my takeaways from my vocational school experience was when I visited an employer, a big employer, Sikorsky, and they had, at that time, 60 entry-level openings for machinists paying about $35 an hour. But what I found fascinating was they offered full tuition reimbursement, and I was like, wow, this isn’t mutually exclusive to college. Like, you can graduate high school with some CTE education or some training in machining, maybe land one of these entry-level jobs and have your tuition paid for by your employer. Maybe you get a degree in mechanical engineering down the road, so, you know, you can wed that work in the trades with a college education, should you want to pursue that path, and have it paid for by your employer. Many employers offered some form of tuition reimbursement that I’ve spoken with, from Link-Belt to Sikorsky, General Dynamics and others. So that was an important fact or important learning during my journey.

Aaron Hand: [00:13:33] Yeah. And, you know, referring back to that Washington Post article, there are tons of comments posted with that article, too. Lots of positive comments from people who are agreeing with what you’re talking about, agreeing that there needs to be more focus on these skilled trades and that path. One of the comments was, somebody mentioned, “don’t forget about us older folks.” “Old,” we’re going to refer to as 50 and above. Let’s say these people who have been in these careers for quite a while and have an opportunity to get that same sort of training and perhaps have their employees pay for that training… What does that discussion look like with them? Do you see any resistance from workers there and understanding what their opportunities are?

Darnell Epps: [00:14:29] Interestingly, I haven’t seen much resistance to upskilling among workers in jobs that are being automated. What I’ve observed is a strong willingness to embrace change when the right support systems are in place. When workers have access to training programs, resources, and guidance, they are generally open to upskilling and see it as a valuable opportunity rather than a burden. I remember I did a one-month residency at the Eastern Kentucky Advanced Manufacturing Institute, which Kathy Walker runs out in eastern Kentucky. Initially it was launched for the purpose of training or upskilling dislocated coal workers. Some of these folks were older, had been in the workforce for 25, 30 years. They had rarely used,[or] worked on their computers. They used it probably for other purposes, but not for work purposes. One of the best CAD/CAM instructors and probably the best CAD/CAM instructor that I met in the country is a gentleman named Buford, who worked 25 years in a coal mine, who went through that five-month program at eKAMI and is very digitally savvy and loves teaching other folks, as well. And I’ve seen that consistently through that program. So, I mean, these are folks, again, who were older, were in the workforce for decades, but who were still open to receiving this training. So if the right support systems are in place, most workers, young or older, will take advantage of those opportunities. It’s just on employers to really lay out those training opportunities for them in a way that they understand.

Aaron Hand: [00:16:37] So, yeah, I just want to jump on that to say, so what do the employers need to do?

Darnell Epps: [00:16:43] Yeah. The employers… It’s on employers. It’s on educational institutions and policy makers to ensure that the necessary training programs and educational opportunities are accessible to everyone. I think employers really need to invest more in providing additional training, subsidizing some of the training that’s needed to take on some of these newer roles. At eKAMI, for example, that’s not a program that trainees need to pay for, right? It’s… they receive a stipend of $1,700 to go through the five-month training program, $1,700 a month. So, expecting someone who may have been an employee for 20 years to go out and pay for some of these trainings, I think is not the right way to go about it, and employers need to find ways to partner, maybe with schools that are providing that training or workforce development programs like eKAMI, and funnel them through those programs to receive those trainings without having to incur any debt.

Jimmy Carroll: [00:18:15] Darnell, I wanted to go back to a point that you sort of touched on earlier. In some ways it seems like we’re over the hump of thinking that robotics and automation are taking people’s jobs because it’s just not true. Now we are in this age where people are afraid of AI to some extent, but we’ll push that one off for now. But, you know, actually robotics and automation are helping to create jobs. So in areas like welding, for example, like a vast majority of the skilled workers are going to be retiring soon and there’s going to be a huge skilled-worker gap. So like, obviously, robotics and automation can help fill that gap in terms of doing the actual work. But won’t these technologies also, in your opinion, won’t these technologies also lure in young people? And what are some other ways that businesses today, not just welding, but beyond that, how can they lure young talent into these career paths?

Darnell Epps: [00:19:15] Yeah, I mean, no doubt the impending retirement of a large portion of a skilled workforce, particularly in fields like welding, presents a challenge and an opportunity. I think some of the things we can do is… First, we need to modernize the image of skilled trades. You know, the public has an outdated perception of trades like welding. These careers, though, offer… People are made to believe that they’re not as desirable compared to white collar jobs. But the truth is that they offer competitive salaries, job security, and the opportunity to work with these cutting-edge technologies. I think businesses need to find ways to kind of highlight that advanced, tech-driven nature of manufacturing and construction and find ways to show showcase that innovation and creativity. I think my platform, Thurgood, we have a way where students and trainees can kind of get on the app, get on the platform and showcase some of the work they’re doing at their schools or at their training programs. You see students in their electrical programs at Porter and Chester[Institute] or HVAC programs at Lincoln Tech showcasing the work that they’re doing. Which  helps change that public perception about this as being something that’s not sophisticated or not skilled.

Darnell Epps: [00:20:58] And, we have to think about how we change the public perception around this, this work. And we also have to engage with education systems early on. Businesses should actively partner with high schools, vocational schools, and community colleges to create pathways into these careers. Offering apprenticeships, internships, and co-op programs can give students hands-on experience and a clear understanding of the opportunities that are available. And so I think that’s another key part. And I’d say one final part would probably be, you know, providing clear career advancement opportunities. Young people are attracted to careers where they see a future. Businesses should clearly communicate the potential for career growth within the skilled trades, including opportunities for continuous learning, specialization, and even entrepreneurship. So those are just some examples, obviously leveraging, like I mentioned earlier, with Thurgood, leveraging search, social media, and digital platforms and meeting Gen Zers, what we call tool belt Gen Zers, and some of the younger people where they are. I think there needs to be a better effort to do that and kind of showcase some of the great work that’s being done in this space.

Jimmy Carroll: [00:22:17] Yeah. Darnell, can you tell us a little bit more about Thurgood and what you guys are doing there, and what’s different about it than other apps out there?

Darnell Epps: [00:22:27] Yeah, yeah. Thurgood is… We’re a platform. We want to be the LinkedIn for the skilled trades. You know, most of the students and trainees that I speak with don’t have LinkedIn profiles. We met on LinkedIn. We promoted this podcast through LinkedIn. But I will say that the students, you know, maybe a fifth of them, have LinkedIn profiles. They just don’t believe the platform was designed for them. We want to create a space where America’s skilled workforce is celebrated. You know, we are modernizing the image of manufacturing in this country and the construction trades. And we have features that allow that to happen. But also, it’s a platform where, you know, you can not just showcase your work, but you can take basic skills assessments across different trades that verify in-demand skills that employers are looking for. And you can earn cash by taking these assessments. You can. It’s a point system that converts into cash. And you can kind of cash that in, get gift cards——Starbucks, Dunkin, you know, your morning coffee, or… It’s gamified a bit in that sense.

Darnell Epps: [00:23:51] But you can also find employers on the app. You can find employers and find jobs on the app. Employers, they have a UI where they can connect with the students and the trainees on our platform as well, and advertise jobs. Let them know of any career opportunities that are available with those companies, We want to be better than just simply a resume system. We think, you know, skills-based hiring is really what’s important. So we’re trying to capture those foundational core skills and allow our users to develop rich living profiles that celebrate the trades, but also give them a way to find the dream career that they’re looking for in advanced industry. So I would encourage everyone to create a Thurgood profile. Get on the app. It’s in the App Store. And we’d love to see you all engage with the community, both students, trainees, people, job seekers who are looking for a role in the trades… a job in the trades or an apprenticeship. And we would encourage employers to claim a profile and interact with these job seekers and young students who we have on the app now.

Aaron Hand: [00:25:17] So much of this just seems to be around reshaping the narrative, you know, from everybody’s perspective. I guess sometimes that’s not particularly easy to do. So, it does sound like your app, in particular, is a way of just kind of chipping away at what the perception is.

Darnell Epps: [00:25:40] Yes, that’s part of the mission. I mean, in order… There’s 2.1 million jobs in the advanced manufacturing sector that are expected to go unfilled by 2030 due to the skills gap right now, which is going to cost the US economy an estimated $1 trillion. And if you graduated everyone from a career or vocational school, I don’t think it would be sufficient to address the needs that this crisis presents and, you know, we have to get more people interested in coming into the profession, coming into the trades. And this platform aspires to do that. And it’s a big task. But in order for it to work, we need to build out community. And that’s why I’m encouraging as many people, as many users, as many employers to be engaged and active on a platform so we can make this a success.

Jimmy Carroll: [00:26:48] Darnell, what else haven’t we discussed today? You know, in the realm of manufacturing and labor shortage and all the things that are important to you. What haven’t we talked about today that’s important to you?

Darnell Epps: [00:27:03] I mean, I think we covered a lot. I think we covered everything pretty much. I’m glad I was able to touch on the fact that a number of employers do offer opportunities for tuition reimbursement for people who are still looking to pursue a college degree. As we’re looking to derisk our supply chains and bring manufacturing back here to the US, we just need to work together to change that perception about what’s happening in this space. And, every day I talk with someone who I call a dreamer or an evangelist who’s doing great work on their own end, and it’s so disaggregated in terms of the efforts, efforts that are being done to address the problem that we’re facing today. But, we need to work together. And, it’s just a pleasure to be on this platform to kind of get some of my thoughts out there. But, [there’s] hard work ahead of us and we’ll be continuing to champion the cause.

Jimmy Carroll: [00:28:24] I love that. So, I mean, like you were saying earlier, I would encourage everyone to check out the app or the website, which is Thurgood.work. Will you be at any upcoming events or trade shows or conferences anyone should check you out at? Or should they [go] on LinkedIn to find out?

Darnell Epps: [00:28:41] Follow me on LinkedIn to find out. I will be at IMTS next week. I’m not doing any presentation there. I have a couple of  additional events lined up that I’m working to solidify. So just follow my LinkedIn. I’ll keep everybody updated. Subscribe to our blog on Thurgood.work, too, so you can stay updated on on new opportunities, new events, career fairs and anything else going on that might be important to the community.

Jimmy Carroll: [00:29:18] Well, that’s great. I love it. Really appreciate it. And maybe I’ll see you next week at IMTS.

Darnell Epps: [00:29:25] Yeah, I’ll be there.

Jimmy Carroll: [00:29:27] All right. Well, Darnell, thanks again. Thanks so much for taking the time. I really appreciate it. And everyone, if you have any questions for Darnell, we’d be happy to pass them along. Whether you go to his website, Thurgood.work, or you want to send them to us at Manufacturing-Matters.com, we’d be happy to put you in touch.