This episode of Manufacturing Matters features Winn Hardin in conversation with Denise Chludzinski, vice president of business development at Miller Resource Group, a leading recruiter specializing in food and industrial automation manufacturing sectors. They discuss current talent trends, labor market challenges, and growth opportunities in manufacturing for 2026. 

Winn Hardin: [00:01:22] Everybody, welcome back to “Manufacturing Matters.” My name is Winn Hardin. I’ll be your host today, where we talk about the technology and trends that are reshaping the manufacturing market around the world. And today, I’m lucky enough to be here with a good old friend of mine. Oh, wait, she’s a good friend. She’s not old. I’m going to clarify that real quick. Yes. I stepped right into it at the beginning. Denise Chludzinski, who is vice president of business development at Miller Resource Group, one of the leading talent recruiters that focuses on food and automation. Is that correct?

Denise Chludzinski: [00:01:50] That’s exactly right.

Winn Hardin: [00:01:51] Fantastic. Denise, tell us a little bit about you and what you do at MRG before we dive in.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:01:56] Yeah. So I recruit for the industrial automation and food and beverage manufacturing space, and we find executives at the manager-level position through the C-suite, and that’s what we do.

Winn Hardin: [00:02:08] Fantastic. And how long have you been doing that?

Denise Chludzinski: [00:02:11] So I’ve been with Miller for 10 years, and I’ve been recruiting for an additional, like, 10 right before that. So I’ve been recruiting for quite some time.

Winn Hardin: [00:02:18] Gotcha. And you have your fingers involved in both sides of the business.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:02:21] So, my focus is business development and bringing in new teams. And then I work with my teams to fill the roles with specific talent based on what our clients are looking for.

Winn Hardin: [00:02:29] Fantastic. And I know you do national accounts, but you’re based out of Chicago, and I know a lot of folks in our industry are in the Midwest. So, if you guys ever have any questions about talent or recruitment or how to prepare yourself for career development or any of those other questions, give Denise a quick shout. All right. So the reason I wanted to have you on the show is because we were having a really good conversation as part of our normal catch up every couple of months, I think December or right after the first?

Denise Chludzinski: [00:02:52] That’s about right.

Winn Hardin: [00:02:53] And we’re always looking for positive signs. Things to make us hopeful that the markets are rebounding. You know, it’s been a bit choppy over the last 18 to 24 months for a variety of reasons, of course, impacting macroeconomic conditions. But when we were talking, you were saying that November, December, we were seeing a little bit better. Now, we just came out of Alan Beaulieu’s keynote presentation, which was —— actually, that was Brian Beaulieu. That was Brian, the brother, got to get it right, even though they’re twins —— don’t hold it against me!

Denise Chludzinski: [00:03:22] I think his daughter’s next, just going to say.

Winn Hardin: [00:03:24] Yeah, I think that was definitely … The transition was being set up there. But I didn’t take away a whole lot of super positivity. I mean, there’s some short-term positivity in there. I won’t ruin that. Check out our social posts if you want to hear more about the takeaways there. But, you know, they were definitely saying there was still pressure on labor. But tell us what you’re seeing in Q4 and then what you’re thinking about in ’26.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:03:46] Yeah. So you brought up a great point: In 2025, it absolutely … Companies started to pause. They were slowing down. They were just more conservative in their approach, and they weren’t necessarily stopping, but they weren’t in a hurry to hire. Come October, November of Q4, we really started to notice an increase. We got a lot more phone calls on, “we need these roles filled yesterday.” And so there was an urgency of key positions, typically in the C-suite, strategic future growth-type positions, as well as sales. So we’ve been seeing that. And that’s carrying on as we are in Q1. And I think that’s going to continue on as we go through ’26. To me, that means positive growth. To your point about the presentation we just saw as well, he did bring up food and he brought up pet.

Winn Hardin: [00:04:35] He did.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:04:36] And manufacturing and food and pet continue to grow. Those tend to be top clients on the other part of my house that continue to call me up with a lot of forward growth plans. So those industrial automation companies that are selling into those groups, there’s going to be a lot of growth.

Winn Hardin: [00:04:51] You know, it’s interesting because food did a lot of CapEx expenditure. They automated a lot. They adopted a lot of technology during the Covid era. And they typically have been a laggard over the years, right? I mean, you know, even more so maybe than manufacturing in general, which has never been a leading-edge, leading industry when it comes to technology adoption, although that’s changing a lot these days with AI, robotics, and a lot of other systems. So the food market … And I was in a “Wall Street Journal” panel session just a few days ago. And they were also talking about food and food production and automation. So we think that’s going to be a solid market in ’26.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:05:29] I think it’s a great way to be. And I think that if you’re going to put your nose somewhere, that’s definitely going to be positive growth, because there’s two sides of food: There’s the branded side and then there’s the private label side. So if the market is poor on one, the other is high because people are eating, people are drinking. So I see that continuing to be “the” trend. And, you know, the big thing for me is, or what I’ve noticed, is … So meat manufacturing —— we support a lot of meat manufacturing companies within our organization. And, to your point, Covid kicked them in the butt, said we need to automate. Well, the labor hasn’t gotten better. In fact, there’s things that are going on that are making it worse. And so those roles, those hourly level positions, when we go to conferences that are specific to food, specific to meat, specific to any [of that], they continue to bring that up as a major problem. That labor pool is just not there. And so what happens? You have to automate. You have to use other tools and technology in order to backfill. So that’s not going away. And the companies that are kind of continuing to hold strong, those companies, some of them, they made the plans during Covid. Some of them were able to act quickly, but those mid-level companies are still lagging. They’re just starting to produce and build out those facilities. So the needs for the equipment are still there.

Winn Hardin: [00:06:53] Gotcha. So you mentioned specifically that C-suite and sales were the demands that you’re getting right now. And I’d like to push a little bit more into that if we can. Just curious if there’s more lessons to be learned there. So are we seeing a lot more … In the general automation industry, just as an example, there’s so much growth, so many startups that are coming into robotics, into imaging systems, into artificial intelligence. Amongst your customer group, is it startups that are demanding the C-suite or are we seeing changes through the mergers and acquisitions? Can you tie it to any other thing, just on the C-suite side, where that demand … Why is that demand spiking right now?

Denise Chludzinski: [00:07:29] I think you’ve got a lot of leaders who are trying to come up with their succession plan.

Winn Hardin: [00:07:34] Okay. Gotcha.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:07:35] I think you’ve got people who, they’re family-owned,they’re aging out. They see the writing on the wall, [they’re saying], in order for me to grow, I need something to change. Like, I’ve brought it to this level. How do I bring it to the next level? But then also, what happens when I don’t … Their kids aren’t necessarily interested, right? And so they need to come up with a plan. And they also need to come up with a plan that is able to adapt to what’s coming, not necessarily what has been.

Winn Hardin: [00:08:04] Different skill sets, right?

Denise Chludzinski: [00:08:05] Very different. Like, I’ve taken you to this, but now how do you get me to the next level? Well, I need something different. And we learned that earlier in yesterday’s ——

Winn Hardin: [00:08:14] Yeah. With the Domino pizza example, the 131x growth because they went crazy all in on technology, right?

Denise Chludzinski: [00:08:23] And you have to think outside of the box like that. If you keep just building … I always say when I’m finding talent for my teams that I’m working with, the clients that I’m supporting, you don’t want to find a match to your culture. You want to find a complement to your culture.

Winn Hardin: [00:08:38] To bring in new experiences?

Denise Chludzinski: [00:08:40] What’s missing in your group? What parts of the cogs to build the business are you not doing? As business owners, you have to wear a lot of hats and you have to do things. But that doesn’t mean that that’s where you’re good and that’s not where your strengths are. So, how can I bring in new talent to match the things that are my gaps? And so the companies that are strategically looking at hiring like that are finding the right people, and they’re allowing them to catapult to the next levels, which I think is where, you know, good companies are going.

Winn Hardin: [00:09:10] Yeah. And that’s really got to be a kind of a foundational element for smart leadership. You know, none of us are masters of everything, right?

Denise Chludzinski: [00:09:19] And hiring is a hard art. It’s an art form. And most of us don’t, especially in those positions —— if it’s a family-owned business, they’re a mid-size company? They are probably really good at keeping their people. Let’s hope, right, that they’re good at getting and keeping ——

Winn Hardin: [00:09:33] Treating people like the family.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:09:34] They’re family, yeah, we’ve got you in here. But it’s the finding new people. And how do we attract new talent? And then how do we make sure that we’re not just trying to find more of me? I’m trying to find what’s going to help us expand what we can bring to the marketplace.

Winn Hardin: [00:09:49] Do you guys do any kind of webinars or classes to help C-suite folks to understand that concept? Don’t look for like on like, you know, I mean, look at yourself with a hard light? I think most chief executives do. They didn’t get to that position by being slow, right? So they’re going to say, I know I need to have all strengths. But do you guys help them on any of those discussions?

Denise Chludzinski: [00:10:10] We have really good clients that, before they start making a hiring decision, they’re talking to me about … They give it to me straight. They lay it all out there and we can discuss and have dialogue about, “all right, so what I’m hearing you say is this is what you’re looking for.” There’s some other great books that are out there and concepts that are out there. There’s one, the Six Types of Working Genius. Love that. It’s a great book that highlights —— or, it’s actually like a practice of, you’ve got these different groups, you’ve got the creators, the designers, and then you’ve got the person who does discernment, who’s shooting ideas down, which a lot of companies miss from a talent standpoint. You’ve got the rallyer, the person who gets all the people excited in your team. You’ve got the person who’s, “hey, Winn, how you doing? You need anything from me?” There’s that person. You need that! You need. And then you’ve got the closer. So you’ve got these six geniuses in this concept —— and I don’t get paid by them! —— this is just …

Winn Hardin: [00:11:11] But if you want to sponsor it down the road …

Denise Chludzinski: [00:11:13] Feel free! But it’s a good discussion point, and it allows me to open up dialogue with my client. Because you can be two of those. You can do all six, but you can be strong in two. And if you’re starting to do the other parts, you really start to lose your happiness and your joy in what you do in your business. And so by having ——

Winn Hardin: [00:11:33] Some of them are going to be in conflict at certain times, right?

Denise Chludzinski: [00:11:35] Oh, yeah.

Winn Hardin: [00:11:35] I mean, you can’t be the closer who’s going to push, push, push and then be Mr. Touchy Feely.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:11:40] How many owners do we know that are great creators, but they don’t have any discernment? And so all these ideas get put into production, only frustrating their company, the people who are like, “wait a second, these ideas should never have gotten past the drawing board.”

Winn Hardin: [00:11:55] Yes.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:11:56] Or the ones that, the owners who are like, “squirrel!” New idea, new idea, new idea. Squirrel! New idea, new … Like, you need to be able to have somebody that says, “ooohkay.”

Winn Hardin: [00:12:06] Like, “sure, in a perfect world, maybe 10 years from now, that’s a great idea. You know, if we had resources A, B, C, D. Yeah. That’s beautiful.”

Denise Chludzinski: [00:12:12] What’s our big focus? Let’s zone in there. So I think owners need to … I love the presentation that talks about, you have to look inward and you have to identify “what can I do to make the change?” And so when you start reflecting on what your strengths are and what your weaknesses are —— because we all have them —— I think that you can really start identifying who is missing in your team, and then you can be much more intentional. And it makes it a lot easier for me to find the right person for you, if you’re hiring me to help you fill the role, because I know what I’m looking for. And I can have candid conversations to those professionals I’m speaking to about what are their strengths. I don’t sell jobs when I’m talking to professionals. I say, “Winn, tell me about you. What are you looking for? What do you need? What do you want? What’s the next step?”

Winn Hardin: [00:13:00] This is on the candidate side?

Denise Chludzinski: [00:13:01] On the candidate side. But in that conversation, because I know what my clients are looking for when they bring up things that are their strengths, I can really pull out and say, “all right, this is going to align well. It’s going to be a good marriage.” Whereas if I’m identifying a job and I’m selling you on the job, now all of a sudden you give me your points and examples based on the job I’m talking about, instead of the big picture —— what is going to make you happy? And that’s really the art that comes into hiring and that most people, they just don’t have enough exposure to it. That’s what we do every day.

Winn Hardin: [00:13:36] Yeah, yeah. Especially in technical markets. I mean, I don’t think engineers generally make good HR managers, you know, or hiring as a general rule.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:13:44] But you bring up a good point. My technical roles, my control engineers, my PLC programmers, that continues to be a huge market. And those candidates that are willing to relocate, that are flexible on, like, which companies they go for, they’re going to have a lot of choices and a lot of options. And I do not see that going away. There is a huge demand on those people who have that expertise.

Winn Hardin: [00:14:08] Okay. All right. So technologists we’ll add as a third group. And we were just talking about C-suite.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:14:12] Yes.

Winn Hardin: [00:14:12] Is the sales spike, the demand for sales talent…? Is that because of expansion? Is it because —— we had The Vibe-cession in 2025, where no one was sure where the world was going so they put off stuff? What do you think? Or is it demand? Is demand just being unleashed? I mean, what do you attribute it to?

Denise Chludzinski: [00:14:30] I think that a lot of companies built out new facilities and they, like in the last two years, quality and operational efficiency were the top roles that we were filling. So, I’d like to think, that those people that were hired have made these facilities much more efficient, much more able —— there’s a lot more capacity that these facilities have. And so now, what do you do when you have a lot of capacity?

Winn Hardin: [00:14:56] You better sell it.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:14:58] You better sell! “I need more salespeople to go out there and sell it.” So I think that’s a big one. I think also, you know, I was talking to some of the women here in for industrial automation. We did the Women Forum, which was awesome. But I was talking to an owner and we were talking about how little true business development people —— and then if you couple that with a technical sale like automation and robotics ——  it’s very difficult to find people who want to go out there and hunt and understand what that means.

Winn Hardin: [00:15:30] Is it kind of like a unicorn, essentially?

Denise Chludzinski: [00:15:32] Kind of a unicorn. There’s the people who are willing to pick up the phone, hold themselves accountable, and have conversations to drive that sales growth.

Winn Hardin: [00:15:43] While still having the tech chops to be able to understand it.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:15:46] You’ve got account managers, people who will manage the hell out of the customer and do a really good job. And that’s an important role. But it’s when we don’t have that relationship: how are you with no?

Winn Hardin: [00:15:58] Yeah, you better get used to it if you’re in sales.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:16:00] And it’s different, people don’t want to see you!

Winn Hardin: [00:16:01] It’s a numbers game. I mean, we’re in marketing. You know, that’s where I live and breathe every day. And I tell everyone, it’s a numbers game.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:16:07] It’s harder to walk into facilities. In the past you could walk in the door and be like, “I’m Winn,” and start talking to them. That sales pitch is no more. You have to build a relationship. They have to almost know you before they know you.

Winn Hardin: [00:16:19] Oh yeah.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:16:20] So that’s really … So your presence on social media, your ability to create a brand on why this company should talk to you and trust you? So that is an art, that’s hard. And you might be a really good salesperson in person, but if you never get that opportunity to talk to people?

Winn Hardin: [00:16:37] Yeah. And they’re reluctant to want to speak to you if they have no inkling of who you are beforehand or what it is you’re going to talk about. People don’t really like surprises in the world of business, I don’t think.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:16:49] No! I mean, you do a great job with this with your group in building out people’s brands, companies, brands. Right? But the individual salesperson has to think the same way. They have to be able to think, when they see me, why should they want to talk to me? When people start working with me, they often—— first of all, I’m very persistent in my outreach, right? So, “Denise, you’ve been calling me for years!” This is why we’re talking today. But they also see me. And when they connect with me on LinkedIn, they see I’m connected to a zillion people that they know are industry specific. So they know I understand what they’re dealing with and what they’re struggling with. And that makes it—— you don’t have to start from zero. I can have a conversation in the middle. And that time saver is really important for most of our clients. So, same thing for my salespeople who get hired on for these companies. They need to be able to showcase to the companies before they get in the door: here’s why I’m relevant, this is why you should at least have a conversation with me. And then the rest is a lot easier to get done.

Winn Hardin: [00:17:57] It doesn’t even have to be a connection to a friend. I mean, a competitor works just as well because it establishes industry knowledge or, you know, the fact that you’ve done this before. You’re not just coming in here and hoping to grow into a position —— especially not in a sales position, because these are not easy jobs to do, as we just talked about, for all the reasons, the technical aspects, the sales, the personal aspects, the human psychology elements. So when you’re talking with candidates, then you’re talking a lot about this personal brand and this development of a communication and kind of a pipeline for themselves. Is there any other advice, especially maybe germane to the markets here in ’26?

Denise Chludzinski: [00:18:33] Yeah. So. Flexibility and location. If you can be flexible on where you live and where you are going, you’re going to have a lot more options. Companies have needs and they’re struggling to find good people. So if you have a technical expertise and you’re willing to relocate, you’re going to have a lot more options.

Winn Hardin: [00:18:52] Yeah.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:18:53] The other thing is you have to start thinking about your … I always recommend when I talk to —— I do a lot of conversations with women in manufacturing and, you know, just different groups  locally and also nationally. But I talk to them about, use LinkedIn and social media as an opportunity to highlight your successes and your wins. Do it live when it’s happening so that people can find you. When they are looking for someone with that level of expertise you’re easier to be found. Not only is that helpful internally for customers —— if I’m selling, you see my stuff, you know I’m relevant. So it’s building that brand. But also, if you want that next opportunity, it’s going to help for those same reasons as well. So it’s not just, “I’m trying to find a new job,” it’s a “it’s going to help me and my customers.” “It’s going to help my business as a whole.” And then, “also down the road, might even help lead me to my next opportunity.”

Winn Hardin: [00:19:44] I think that’s a critical point. You know, it’s so funny because a lot of the consulting we do these days is to actually like ——  we talked with a particular client in the automation space, and they they didn’t have enough case studies. They didn’t have enough customer testimonials. Like, every company suffers with that. You got NDA issues and technical markets. It’s very, very difficult. At the same time, every sale they wanted their salespeople to be making —— I think at that time it was somewhere around eight meetings a week or something like that —— now all of that has to be captured and put into their CRM system so that you capture the tribal knowledge. So you can build the relationship with the client or the prospect, so that when people —— if it’s you or someone else —— you don’t go in there cold. So we said to them, “well, why don’t you empower, you know, give your salespeople out on the road just a cell phone, a gimbal or whatever the case is, why don’t you have them record their summary of the meeting they just had with the client?” Sometimes the client will be with you at the very end of that meeting. So it’s entirely possible that this might be kind of a back door way into a testimonial or a case study down the road, which then you can use to push on social media, email everything else to create visibility for yourself, for your company, for your services, products, and all of these sales.

Winn Hardin: [00:20:56] Whether you’re selling yourself or you’re selling your company, it’s not something —— just like you said, you don’t go looking when you need the sale. You create relationships over months and years, and that’s how you become successful long term.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:21:06] Absolutely.

Winn Hardin: [00:21:07] So we said to them, record the interaction. Maybe we’ll get some testimonials. We’ll get B-roll, if nothing else. At that moment, your saleswoman or man is very excited about it, so they’re going to be, you know, emotional when they’re telling you the summary, especially if they had a win. So now we’re building a video library. Throw that into AI, have it summarized. Take that, paste that into your CRM system —— and you can use an admin-level person. Now, we’ve freed up that whole sales team from having to constantly go into the CRM and hit keyboards, and we all know how much sales enjoys that, right? Paperwork’s not exactly their forte, their strength, not what they love the most.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:21:44] Anytime you can automate and any time you can utilize things —— “I’m already doing it. How can I make this be multiple wins for us?”

Winn Hardin: [00:21:51] 100%! And that’s exactly the point I was trying to make.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:21:54] It’s a good use of time and it’s a good use of your tools. You know, I, even in my intake calls with clients, I —— well, even with candidates —— when I have a conversation, I type it all up, but I’m having it summarized via AI. I’m using AI as a tool to capitalize and recap because I want to make sure I’ve heard them correctly.

Winn Hardin: [00:22:17] 100%.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:22:18] But also it’s a win for them, right? Like, so if you were doing that with any of your customers, whatever you’re trying to sell, and you were saying, “here’s what I heard.” That’s a powerful tool. And if there’s opportunities for us to correct, let them tell it and let them say it for face value. To know that I’ve been heard as a customer, that’s extremely valuable.

Winn Hardin: [00:22:37] Absolutely. But take a second to read the AI summary first. Because you just don’t know.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:22:46] Oh, yes. No no no no no. It should absolutely be a … It’s not  external facing, it’s internal. And then I have my notes to go back on, too. I’m taking the notes first, and then I’m using AI to help put it into buckets so that it’s more legible. And it’s a little bit easier to follow.

Winn Hardin: [00:23:05] And let’s be real, right after the meeting, the knowledge is fresh. When you’ve been doing what you do, whatever it is that you do, for a number of years, the brain gets really good at internalizing it for at least 15 minutes.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:23:17] Don’t ask me about it tomorrow!

Winn Hardin: [00:23:18] Okay. So are you having any challenges either finding candidate … What is the biggest challenge? I know in your business it’s always back and forth. There’s two sides, right? You want to develop long-term relationships with the employers and you want to help consult on them, you know, find out when the positions are open. And then find the candidates that we’ve been talking about.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:23:36] Yes.

Winn Hardin: [00:23:36] Is there anyone right now that’s got some friction in it, or the biggest demand? Any thoughts there at all?

Denise Chludzinski: [00:23:44] Yes. Well, first of all, counteroffers are very, very strong. Companies are doing more to try to keep the talent that they have. So they are doubling down.

Winn Hardin: [00:23:56] Okay.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:23:57] And they are promising things that may or may not be true, but whatever! They’re promising it. And candidates, I feel, they’re also dealing with … They may not be happy, but they also have got a lot going on in other categories of their lives that, making a change isn’t always that comfortable. It’s never comfortable.

Winn Hardin: [00:24:15] Change never is.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:24:15] It’s never comfortable. Yeah, but it’s a little bit more, “Ah, if I could just stick around a little longer, especially if they’re hanging this huge carrot in front of me …”  So that continues to be an issue. So companies that are interviewing our clients were saying, “you need to be fast. You need to make your process quick. You need to be transparent through the process, because people that you’re interviewing for, they want to know that they can trust you.” So the more that you can be upfront about the good, the bad, the ugly, you know, it’s going to come out. So be upfront about it. And then you also have to be able to pull the trigger quickly, but also be able to say, “all right, I love you too.” And let people feel that you’re invested in them as much as they’re going to be investing in you. Those are the clients that are winning the talent, because they’re doing all those pieces. They’re fast, they’re being transparent, and then they’re also coming to the table, not trying to take advantage of a situation. They’re saying, this is what you’re worth, and this is what I want to do to bring you in, because I really think that you could bring value to our team. They want to be wanted.

Winn Hardin: [00:25:21] Yeah, don’t we all?

Denise Chludzinski: [00:25:22] We all want to be wanted! So, candidates are in a position of power right now. They absolutely have the ability to ——

Winn Hardin: [00:25:30] So tight labor market?

Denise Chludzinski: [00:25:31] It’s a tight labor market and I don’t see that going away. I feel like that’s going to continue to stay. You need to be able to be, as a company, genuinely people-focused. If that’s who you really are, the candidate that’s interviewing with you is going to see it, and it’s going to encourage them to make the move. And I would say also, the companies that want to hold on to their people, if you’re genuinely people-focused, spend time making sure that your people know that they’re heard, they’re valued. You know, the simple: “you’re doing a really good job.”

Winn Hardin: [00:26:04] That kind of thing.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:26:04] Yeah. Like, you know, we all don’t want to touch each other anymore, but you need to touch each other. In a good way, in a good way!

Winn Hardin: [00:26:11] In the right time and place with the appropriate boundaries!

Denise Chludzinski: [00:26:15] We need to know that we’re valued and, appropriately, we need to be looked in the eye and say, “you’re doing a great job.” That goes a long way.

Winn Hardin: [00:26:22] Plus investing in those people through additional training and skills, growth, and everything else.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:26:25] Investing in your people, all of that. But, you hear it. You go to these conferences and they’re like, “ah, people just want more money.” It’s salary, salary, salary. I have had people decline. Like, they have walked away from opportunities. Their companies counteroffer with a larger number or, you know, they walk away from big numbers, bigger numbers. Because that’s not the most important thing for people. It normally is not. Sometimes it is. But when you really ask deeper questions, you find out it’s typically, they want to know that the company supports them. They want to know that their voice is heard. They want to know that they are a part of something bigger. And I think that’s going to become another trend for our next generation of people, the kids, the next generation of leaders and salespeople. They want to feel like this is something that they can go home and be proud of what they’re doing with their families. So how can we write that narrative for them and allow them to feel that way? And you know, this is something I always talk about —— I’ve actually presented on the topic —— but we have to do a better job. We don’t have to be perfect all the time. We don’t have to be great all the time.

Winn Hardin: [00:27:33] That’s good, because we would fail miserably.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:27:36] Fail a lot! But we need to be better at creating moments for our people. You spend time to create a moment, so they feel that they are valued.

Winn Hardin: [00:27:48] Okay. Define a moment for me.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:27:48] Their first day on the job. There’s a great book, The Power of Moments by Dan and Chip Heath. It’s called The Power of Moments. And they talk about the first day on the job. We do all this work to get the people hiring with us. This came home for me because we do recruiting, right? But we do all this work trying to recruit you into our company. And then the moment you’re supposed to start, it’s almost like you’re forgotten.

Winn Hardin: [00:28:08] Welcome! Go sit at your desk.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:28:11] “Welcome! I’ll be in to see you in a little bit.” Even as simple as, instead of me and you, as the new person, I’m walking you around, introducing you to everyone, which kind of feels like I’m inconveniencing all those people’s days? [What if] your team is set up to come over and introduce themselves? That feels different, you know? And none of our —— most of our clients are not large. It doesn’t need to be big stuff. But when you come to your desk and you’ve got a little welcome package and a little note that says, we’re excited to have you.

Winn Hardin: [00:28:41] Sure.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:28:41] You know, just like your hotel room, when you go in your room, it says, “welcome, Denise.”

Winn Hardin: [00:28:47] And the little messages flashing on the telephone. And someday I’m going to listen to that message. Someday.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:28:52] I don’t know about the message, but the TV is a big thing. It matters.

Winn Hardin: [00:28:56] No, I agree.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:28:57] If there was fruit or something when I walked in my door, I would enjoy that. I’ve been in hotels that do that and it’s like, oh yeah.

Winn Hardin: [00:29:04] You know, Hilton, you might want to listen. I don’t know.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:29:08] But it’s those moments. I think as companies, they want to hold on to their talent. If they start intentionally identifying opportunities to create moments for their employees, they’re going to give their employees things to talk about and brag about at home. And that’s what’s going to —— when they’re getting a call from me to steal them away! —— they’re going to be like, “Denise, I’m good.” And you know what I say when they’re really happy? Well, first I ask them, “are you a 10 happy?”

Winn Hardin: [00:29:37] How happy? Define happy!

Denise Chludzinski: [00:29:38] Define how happy you are. Because if it’s a nine, there’s opportunity, as far as I’m concerned.

Winn Hardin: [00:29:43] But with you, Denise, even a 10 wouldn’t be a hard no for you.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:29:47] But if it’s a 10, I want to say, great! You obviously have a great company to work for. What is your growth plan within your company? Because those are the companies I want to hire for. I don’t want the ones that I can’t keep their people. Like, that doesn’t…

Winn Hardin: [00:30:01] Make your job easier.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:30:02] I don’t want to keep filling roles for you. To me, that makes me look bad.

Winn Hardin: [00:30:05] I never would have thought of that. Course that’s brilliant.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:30:07] I want to find people who are going to stay. My biggest compliment is when my people get promoted and they’re there multiple years, happy within the organization.

Winn Hardin: [00:30:16] There you go. I think all of this aligns really interestingly with the economist thing that we were just hearing, when he was talking about stress. Test your business to see if you can handle 20% increase in labor costs over the next two years. Was that the timeline? Wasn’t it, two years?

Denise Chludzinski: [00:30:28] Yes.

Winn Hardin: [00:30:29] Because pay’s going up. And I don’t know if that’s in response to higher prices or I don’t really know. I don’t think Brian really got into that too much. But, tight labor markets, you know, certain growth industries, these things all can contribute to the need for higher labor costs.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:30:46] Yeah. Well, and anytime somebody leaves an organization, if they don’t have to relocate, it’s a 10 to 15% increase in pay. If they’re relocating now it’s 15 to 20-plus percent increase in pay. So you want to talk about 20%? It’s pretty easy to get you that increase. Right?

Winn Hardin: [00:31:04] Very true.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:31:04] Because all of a sudden, I can’t pay you what you were making if I’m stealing you away.

Winn Hardin: [00:31:08] 100%.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:31:08] Right?

Winn Hardin: [00:31:09] Excellent point.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:31:10] I think that that’s really important to kind of highlight. But, when it comes down to it, it’s not always about the money. So yeah, I got to be paid fairly. And I want to feel like I’m being valued. But I also gotta know, there are other things that are really important to me that are more than money.

Winn Hardin: [00:31:28] Money does not incentivize nearly as many people as one thinks, you know? And I’m not saying that we don’t all need money or want money. We do. But does the more you pay them directly translate linearly to their performance at work? No, no. I mean, there’s a lot of things —— culture plays into that. All these things you’re talking about, you know, making people feel like, this is somewhere I feel like home. Because we spend so much time here, you know, I want to feel like I’m home, you know, unless, like, I’m homeless.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:31:54] And if you’ve got crap happening at home. I don’t want to make a switch right now. I’m just trying to keep my head afloat, make sure that my kids aren’t doing stupid things. And I want to make sure that, like, my life’s in order. So I just want my work to be a safe place for me, that I can do my job and be able to just show up and and contribute, positively contribute. I don’t want to feel like I’m being —— the biggest thing is, I don’t want to feel like I’m being taken advantage of. I’ve actually had clients that they do salary assessments, and they identify where people are, and are they getting paid appropriately? And the comment is, once you find out that your people are underpaid —— here goes back to this transparency —— are you bringing them in and saying, listen. I know you could be making more somewhere else, but we value you. What can we do to make you happy with what you have? That sounds like a scary conversation.

Winn Hardin: [00:32:51] That is definitely a scary conversation.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:32:53] But I promise you, your people are going to be like, thank you for noticing. And thank you for calling that out. Because, man, I want to work for a boss, a leader who is that transparent and says, okay, I can’t pay you the money, but maybe we can give you some extra time off.

Winn Hardin: [00:33:12] Exactly. More PTO.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:33:13] Or whatever.

Winn Hardin: [00:33:14] Yeah.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:33:15] And so we can get creative. And you know what? The people that I talk to on the phone are professionals. And they get that. That’s more valuable than to have someone throw —— we’ve all seen this. You get a person who’s offered all this extra money, they get to it, and the grass is not greener on the other side. So, like, what are you selling your soul to?

Winn Hardin: [00:33:37] Yes. That’s always a bad feeling.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:33:39] Exactly.

Winn Hardin: [00:33:40] So you do due diligence on —— i can’t say that three times fast —— when you’re the candidate, too, right? It’s super important to really know the culture and everything. Even though you have to be ready and the decisions need to be made in a timely fashion and be ready to pull the trigger. But, that doesn’t mean you don’t have to do a lot of research to make sure you’re going to be happy in the end, right?

Denise Chludzinski: [00:33:57] Yeah. You should be happy. But, like, in the conversation, the interview itself is telling. If they’re taking a long time to make decisions?

Winn Hardin: [00:34:05] Take that into account.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:34:06] That means something.

Winn Hardin: [00:34:07] 100%.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:34:08] You know, if they’re telling you things probably like, oh, maybe “that’s a lot.” That’s very transparent. But I appreciate the honesty. Because now I feel like I’m going to be going somewhere that I can always count on them to be honest, I’m a big girl, you know? I can handle the truth. Tell it to me straight because …

Winn Hardin: [00:34:26] I’m going to learn it either way.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:34:27] I’m gonna find out. So let’s figure it out and work through it together. I’m going to want to work for that company rather than the one that’s like, “oh yeah, we’ll do that and we’ll do that, promise, promise.” And then the moment I find out your promises are just … I will be leaving.

Winn Hardin: [00:34:43] Yes. And a lot of other people will, too, and that company will suffer. If not fail.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:34:46] They’re going to suffer.

Winn Hardin: [00:34:46] That’s a given. It’s just, you know, it speaks to, doing the right thing pays off most of the time.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:34:52] People-centered approach. You put your people first. Think about what they want. Ask them what they want. I mean, there’s a concept, right? Ask them what they want, and just be very transparent. I think if we’re all doing that, we’re going to get a lot further and we’re going to have a lot more success.

Winn Hardin: [00:35:08] Denise, as always, I love talking to you. Thanks for joining us here today. I look forward to the next time. I’ll probably see you maybe the summer up at Automate down in …

Denise Chludzinski: [00:35:16] Chicago!

Winn Hardin: [00:35:16] Up in Chicago, your neck of the woods. Okay. All right. If anybody has any questions for Denise or Miller Resource Group, if you are a candidate who’s looking for a job, if you have a job to fill, don’t be shy. You can reach out to Denise Chludzinski. You can reach out to her directly at Miller Resource Group in Chicago. You can reach her that way, or she’s all over social media. You’ll find her there. If you have any difficulties there, shoot us the question and we’ll get it to Denise and she’ll get back to you ASAP.

Denise Chludzinski: [00:35:45] Happy to help.

Winn Hardin: [00:35:45] In the meantime, thanks for this. We hope you enjoyed this episode, learned some good stuff. If you want to check out our old episodes, look at any of your favorite podcast platforms. We’re all over the place. You can also find us at Manufacturing-Matters.com. And until next time, thank you very much. My name is Winn.